May 30, 2023
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Hi! Everybody. Welcome to season. 3.
Episode 5 of fabulously Candice, and before I introduce our
fabulous guest today, I just have to say that I bought jelly shoes
from melissa.com, and I had jelly shoes in 1986.
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I
was 12, and I haven't had them since, and they smell so good.
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So for those of you autistic folks
out there that, like sensory stimulation, I want to.
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Well, who doesn't? That's autistic.
What am I saying?
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What's what I struggle with is, I
just want to smell my shoes all the time.
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So Ally, after I introduce you, we're
gonna probably have to talk about that because I'm wearing them
today.
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And I just want to smell them. They
smell so good.
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But I also want to say so, random,
but for folks listening, this is just part of my brain, and really
my Adhd brain.
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5 min before I'm supposed to get
on today. I decided it was necessary to clean out my purse, so want
to say that this rad this is the story of our life behind the
scenes right?
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And lastly, lastly, Allie is Ali.
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Before I introduce you. People know,
Ally, though I will say, because you've been on before, hey?
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I
just got back on Instagram for a moment's day.
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It's a visual stim nightmare. I just
want to say it's a visual stem nightmare, and why?
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Because I'm obsessed with it. So I've
got to figure out how to navigate that.
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But I'm sure other people can relate
to that struggle with visual stem, and especially on social
media.
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Holy cow. With that being said,
Welcome, Ellie Dearborn!
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Welcome back!
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Yay so happy to be with you again,
Candace.
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Yes, I love this. We have become good
friends, and so much has happened since you came on the first
time.
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So let me just give you another shout
out you've been licensed for nearly 15 years.
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You're an expert in treating women
with complex trauma and various addictive behavior.
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You've been on a lifelong quest to
better understand yourself and to discover your autism earlier, and
you discovered your autism earlier this year.
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Yeah, last year. Now, yeah.
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We talked about that. And it
actually, last year. But it actually has really catalyzed.
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All you're doing, I mean, I would say
it's completely switched.
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Your practice and your focus in
working with autistic women and really getting the word out.
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There 2 clinicians and medical
providers, and other professionals.
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On what autism in females looks like,
and how can we assess accurately, so that we can provide proper and
appropriate treatments?
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So with that.
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Yes.
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Yes, and we got to do. I think the
incredible work in starting that information flow within the ipac
community, for sure.
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Yes, so we did. So. Itap is the the
International Institute for trauma and addiction professionals.
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Itap, and I'm just going to read the
title of our presentation.
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So ally, and I in April, at the end
of April.
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Gosh! Time flies presented on love,
addicted or seeking safety, accurately assessing and treating
autistic females with symptoms of trauma, sex and love addiction in
both inpatient and outpatient settings and it was a huge
success.
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Do you?
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It was. Yes, I've had so much anxiety
going into it because it had been a while since I had done any sort
of formal professional presentation.
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But as soon as we started going,
Candace, it was like just fine, you know, like it just deeply
believe in the information and the importance of it, and was really
touched by the cues of safety that, I know.
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Ed in the room, just people smiling
and nodding along.
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And, you know, being just the felt
tone in the room to me, felt this very.
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Hmm!
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Honoring and like. There was genuine
curiosity, and I just find that so meaningful.
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Well, and I I love that. You just
said that for folks that are listing, because here we are
professionals again, we have learned to mask for so many decades,
both of us autistic coming out in our you know.
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I
mean they they knew like a the audience members knew, but we had
Deborah Kaplan, who's a big name in our field, you know.
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Yes.
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She's all about financial infidelity.
And then we had Jenna Romerzma, who's a dear friend who wrote
altogether you, and is the editor of altogether us, which I've been
blessed to be an author in one of the chapters in we had
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Marty free. Marnie Free is a big name
in our field, who?
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What kind of really took the lead for
autistic or not autistic.
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Excuse me, females who came out as
love and sex addicted decades ago, right?
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Yeah.
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So, among other amazing, we had other
autistic individuals, both females, males in the room.
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It was just so beautiful to have so
much support. And really, people from all over.
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So I feel like that. Just felt very
honoring to me to see the familiar faces.
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And I loved how you said that in
terms of cues of safety, because both of us were really
anxious.
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I
mean. I sang on the mic before.
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Did a little bit of karaoke, because
that's also part of who we are.
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Just really fine and spontaneous, but
I really loved how you and I were able to dispel a lot of myths
about autistic females.
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So I really want us to start there,
Ally, let's just dispel some miss.
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Maybe we talk about how we've done
this before, but I do think it's worthwhile so many of us are
misdiagnosed as borderline.
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I
know I was. You were given that diagnosis.
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I
get that there are similarities. But, my God! So let's start there
with, what is that about Ally?
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Why are so many clinicians, instead
of taking time to look at a neurological difference?
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I'm so grateful to have witnessed
that performance.
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Does that go in for the borderline
diagnosis?
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Oh, goodness, yeah! Such a.
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There's so much work to be done here,
and I think just.
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With what, we were able to accomplish
in our kind of presentation.
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Yes.
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Talk. I mean. This to me was one of
the primary things that I people to come away with.
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You know which is that because of the
lack of understanding about female autism and it's kind of
presentation or you know, it's observability by others.
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You know, and because I think there's
a lot that's assumed about what it means to be autistic, like,
maybe that you're like, you know, anti relational like that, you
know, kind of like, you're a solitary figure, you love being
alone.
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And so it's like, there's less
consideration around, kind of how the challenges within
relationships can emerge.
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Yeah.
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You know. So it's like, so I think
there's a multitude of factors.
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But one being that you know the
development, maintain a maintenance.
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You know, kind of the whole
experience of relationships, having differences in the experiences
of relationships is part of the diagnostic criteria for being
autistic, but because the relationships maybe are colored like in
my own past experience.
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And we've touched on this together,
you know, with like a lot of confusion.
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Umhm.
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And then with the rejection,
sensitive dysphoria that Adhds or autistics also experience, which
is essentially from the nervous system, standpoint like a you know,
a very quick collapse.
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You know where you ride through all
layers of your poly, vague ladder.
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Yeah.
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According to you know, Deb, data is
work, and you end up in, you know, dorsal, like total despair,
which can be triggering for self harming behaviors such as you
know.
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Yes. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I
use hit myself, I would have suicide attempts, you know, multiple
especially through my adolescence, and you know, or in sort of the
face of some massive relational disruption.
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And because the attachment in the
primary relationships, I think it's often like our whole can become
like almost like the you know, it's like the whole ground beneath
us is anchored in sort of our primary support.
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Person at times, and when that
relationship is disrupted, the significance of the round beneath
you being completely earthquake, you know, is a really debastating
life experience that was precipit, you know, like those experiences
precipitated.
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Yes.
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My final you know, quote unquote
mental health crisis as a 38 year old woman in my early, you know,
when I started this recovery mission, and that is something that's
also very common.
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But because we have so little
understanding about autistic people and autistic females.
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Specifically, I think, when
clinicians see challenging chaotic relationships and then self
harming attempts, it just bling blings to they must be borderline
while missing.
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Yes.
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There are so many other kind of
components here to assess, and there are ways to really look for
and explore for kind of what.
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What's the nature you know of, you
know. Change in transitions.
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What causes the conflict right like?
Did someone not do what they said?
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They were gonna do right like, you
know where you know what?
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Right.
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Even what's the source of the anger,
and is that you know, the emotional dysregulation that is part and
parcel.
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Yes, yes.
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Neuro. Different experience, you
know, is considered to be borderline type behavior.
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But I'm really curious, honestly,
from a research perspective like, is it possible that everything
we've ever known about borderline personality?
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Which is a historical and
pathologizing primary diagnosis for females like akin to the
hysteria.
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Oh!
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Yeah.
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You know, earlier versions of the
Dsm. But is it really autistic women and people that have missed
looking for some of the other criteria, like with negative
behaviors or the sensory sensitivity, right the thinking
patterns?
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Huh!
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Anyway, that's some initial
thoughts.
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Oh, my gosh! Well! And you just
explained it so eloquently and articulately, and you just nailed it
because the reality is that we do want to be in relationship, and
for so many autistic females we get in these relationships.
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And we're we are very vulnerable. The
autism diagnosis creates vulnerability.
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And so we're very trusting, too,
trusting, right?
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We often are, we fall victim, and
pray to gaslighting and narcissistic abuse, not just in our
intimate relationships, Ali, but my gosh!
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In our peer relationships as adult
women, including when we are younger.
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Right. So it's like. But clinicians
are right.
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They look at the emotional
dysregulation they look at.
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If they're substant, abuse the
it.
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Oh yes!
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The intensity of relationships. They
look at self harming behavior and suicidal ideation which you and I
know you just said it to is literally a natural response to
rejection, sensitivity.
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It doesn't mean we're going to do
harm.
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Necessarily, we you know, add it
literally. If if you ask enough questions you're gonna find
out.
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Yes.
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Oh, that's rejection, sensitivity!
But those alone cause clinicians to go borderline, and the sad
reality.
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The reason why I wanted to start here
is because borderline is so stigmatized.
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It's like, your borderline. It's
almost like when autism men are missed out as narcissist. You're a
narcissist right?
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There's so much stigma that comes
with those 2 diagnosis.
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Yeah, there's no treatment for you.
There's no help for you.
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Hmm!
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You're the problem right? Instead of
this compassionate inquiry, I guess, as I use theaporable taste,
language.
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But instead of being compassionate,
and taking the time to inquire about what's going on, which leads
me to our assessment.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm so proud of this
piece of work.
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Yes.
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And really just sentence, you know,
kind of trying to synthesize some of the.
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What the research that has been
conducted shows on the female expression of autism.
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You know, and centering those kind of
characteristics and traits, and the commonalities that show up
through lived experience.
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Research and more autistic researcher
focused research. You know.
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And then with that comes the whole
development of really challenging the entire medical model view of
autism.
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As a quote, unquote disorder, and
looking through a neural affirmative lens which use autism as a
neurotype, not as a disorder.
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And thereby changes the languaging of
how we're assessing for autism by presenting it as autistic ways of
being as opposed to symptoms of a disorder.
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Yeah, I love that.
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So what I'm loving about.
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Of course you know the the myriad of
edits that this document has, and since we shared it at Itap.
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But the more more we kind of work on
it, the more excited they get, because they think it's also a
teaching tool for clinicians.
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Yes.
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You know, or for autistic people
themselves. Right like that, you know, there's it's a teaching
about how all of the best practice recommendations.
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Yup. For us. You know nothing without
us. You know nothing about it.
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Yes, about us. Without us. Yeah.
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Yes, right? Exactly like that
includes autistic voices. And for me, as you know, feminist as a
female like this, it is like working with women, is my area.
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Yeah.
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Of interest. You know I have a that's
a narrow niche, perhaps, but also why?
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Because there's a lot of women out
there, you know.
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But the way that the teaching of how
we present what it means to be autistic to people.
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Yes.
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To me becomes an access point. For
really fostering and embracing that positive identity that can come
with the quote unquote diagnosis.
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But maybe it's really just coming to
a better understanding that there are other people who think
experience, you know, process the world like me, you know, feel
similar things to me, you know, it's like there's spaces where I am
understood.
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Yes.
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And I think just terms of kind of the
trauma of being undiagnosed, autistic, through a lifetime, for
those of us that are late in life.
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When we do get the diagnosis,
it's.
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You know it's.
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You know there is a thing called
double, but there's a double empathy problem when it gets
milted.
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Yes.
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Studied this, and like 12 or
something that double empathy research where you know the you know,
it's that there's a mute you. There's a dual, and there's a dual
challenge and understanding.
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One another when you're looking at an
autistic framework which might be honesty.
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Yeah.
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You know deep how you kind heart, you
know, like compassion direct, you know, zooms the best right like
thoughtful, you know, and then maybe a neurotypical person who just
has a different way of being and different norms and ways.
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Yeah.
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They approach things, and you know,
from the medical model, autistic people have been taught how to
adapt to what they kind of more neurotypical expectations are for
how you communicate what you're supposed to be interested in how
you're supposed to body, how you're supposed to experience world
which
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Yeah.
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means like, stay still and use your
rather than feel touch things you know.
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Yeah.
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Getting well. Yes, exactly. So.
There's some thoughts that are rolling out.
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Well, I love it, and you know what we
did, which I think is so beautiful is we started out by looking at
the assessments that were out there right?
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And so, if you can, you just share
kind of what you noticed right in looking at the assessments that
were out there, and the difference or the discrepancies, for
instance, between what what's out there and then what we've
created?
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Hmm, yeah. Well, maybe a kind of a
felt sense exercise and I don't have the fullest in front of me,
and I often need visual cues or things that I or you can look
at.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
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It's it grounds me. It's like a
ground strategy.
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But they're, you know, if we look at
sort of the symptoms set as written in the Dsm.
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5, and you know, kind of just having
a felt sense of the words, persistent deficits in abnormal social
approach, right failure to.
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Yup difficulty.
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Yeah.
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That's a lot right. Difficulty with,
like, you know, total of version of like rigid, you know, is this,
didn't you know normal?
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Yeah.
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You know, it's like, so it's just a
you know.
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We are describing people.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like what you know, like against what
you know. Like kind of you know how normal is our normal.
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Really people, you know, it's like
what is going on here, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
189
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And so I think, with the neurural
affirmative languaging. What you know primarily what we're doing is
saying, you know, instead of deficits in the wording is different
in and instead of like, you know.
190
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What is it called like? Not peculiar?
There's another p word like the, you know, like rigid.
191
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Like like pre-up preoccupation.
192
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Yeah. Yes. Like, yeah, it's like, it
becomes like preferences for right as opposed to like that.
193
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Yeah, yeah.
194
00:20:54.109 --> 00:21:05.109
Yeah. Rigid, you know. Yeah, did. I
mean, I can't even I don't even wanna talk about how it's
language.
195
00:21:05.109 --> 00:21:06.109
Oh, yeah.
196
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Honestly. Well, it's like no, so I
think what I love about how we continue to work with an adapt the
tool, even since the end of April.
197
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Is complete removal of the Dsm. 5.
Criteria relanguing all of it.
198
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So that it really?
199
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You know, for instance, differences
in social communication and interaction.
200
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I. So it's like differentnces in
social communication and interaction across all 3 of the A domains
of which there's kind of the experience relationships, experience
of non-spoken communication and experiences with communication.
201
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And then for B, it's preferences for
calming or energizing or balancing movements or activities.
202
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Yes, yes.
203
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Tasks, special interests and or
sensory experiences, and so we're looking at really normalizing the
way that an autistic, you know, or kind of, you know, neuro
different systems regulates itself is through use of movement use
of options, right engaging in the sensory experience to you know,
shift in
204
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Yeah.
205
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Yeah.
206
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physical space and needing a lot of,
you know, kind of the because of the openness of our systems.
207
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All the data. You know, we look for
kind of, you know, routines, schedules, you know, things that are
predictable, known to bring the sense of kind of calm.
208
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Yeah.
209
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And like, you know, like I kind of
know where. If this, then this you know, and so I can kind of try
to keep.
210
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Yes.
211
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Offensive regulation for myself,
which is very different than calling me rigid right?
212
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For another person, so.
213
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Yes, yes! Oh, my gosh! I just love
this!
214
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Conversation. I we I have the
opportunity to educate a medical provider who assessed one of our
autistic clients for Academy, assisted therapy because we've
started Academy and assisted psychotherapy enormous day, and what I
appreciate first about the medical provider is he stayed very
215
00:23:41.109 --> 00:23:42.109
Oh!
216
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open and curious to my response
response to his micro aggressions against this autistic
individual.
217
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There. He did not intend it to be a
month aggression.
218
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I
wanna say that. But intention doesn't equal impact and made a
comment that I just thought, okay, so you know.
219
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Oh, you know he is, you know this
rigidity, they said.
220
00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:10.109
So that's actually a part of him. If
we talk about internal family systems and software is a part.
221
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This is what Meg and I wrote in our
chapter a neuro inclusive approach to ifs, which is our
hardware.
222
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What's going on with our brain is
over here, and then the software iss here.
223
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And so this assumption that you know
all autistic people are rigid, right?
224
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That deficit language. And so I just
shared with him because he was talking about the suite individual
who had just landed basically come out of the journey.
225
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And he had a protector part come
forward, and so it wasn't that his autistic brain was being
rigid.
226
00:24:47.109 --> 00:24:56.109
It was that he came back into
embodiment, and as we know what can happen in the autonomic nervous
system is, you know, sympathetic right?
227
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So there's that hardware. And then a
part came forward to protect right.
228
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So I guess my point in saying that is
that just how important it is that we get this education out there
because there are so many well intended medical providers and
clinicians who are going off the Dsm.
229
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Which people I will say this
neurotype should not neurological differences should not be in a
diagnostic manual where the focus is on disorder.
230
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It is not a disorder when I hear
people say, this is a mental illness.
231
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When I hear people say, including
providers. You know, autistic people can flip a switch and they're
taking time bombing.
232
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Yeah.
233
00:25:51.109 --> 00:25:55.109
Okay, we're not psychopaths like, who
are you talking about?
234
00:25:55.109 --> 00:26:02.109
It's so deficit based. So so getting
back to our assessment, you and I were really inspired.
235
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By this awareness that we've got to
change the language.
236
00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:14.109
And so we we just made a brave. We
just took the brave job last week when we were in edits and said,
Let's ditch the D's.
237
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Let's ditch the disorders let's ditch
the Dsl language.
238
00:26:18.109 --> 00:26:25.109
Let's do it our way and get people in
this mindset. That, hey?
239
00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:35.109
It's a difference in. So if you get a
divenosis of autism through this assessment with us, we're looking
at it as a difference which I'll be honest.
240
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When I did that I used our tool
earlier this week with an autistic female, as I was doing.
241
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You know the screening, and I noticed
my brain having to switch because I have almost 20 years of being
trained on a model that is very disorder and deficit, based.
242
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And so I had to really look at it as,
Hey, she's getting this.
243
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She fits all the criteria. Holy cow
like check the box when I we went into detail of each section which
we're going to get into here in a minute, she fit every single one,
and I had to look at it as an even my language with her I said the
Dsm is gonna
244
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call these deficits. We're looking at
them as differences.
245
00:27:19.109 --> 00:27:20.109
So I, you know, kind of made that
disclaimer up to get her brain also thinking of that.
246
00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:25.109
In terms of, you know a difference,
because what what she and I were thinking well, who cares
about?
247
00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:31.109
It's a difference in how we
communicate. What's the issue?
248
00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:34.109
Yeah.
249
00:27:34.109 --> 00:27:38.109
But sadly, sadly, for a diagnosis of
autism.
250
00:27:38.109 --> 00:27:48.109
You know, it's like there has to be
this. It's a deficit, and there's a failure to. And it's, you know,
it's this persistent deficiency in.
251
00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:51.109
And it's just this rigid like you
said.
252
00:27:51.109 --> 00:27:53.109
It's all this language like you said,
it's all this language.
253
00:27:53.109 --> 00:28:11.109
So I just want to point that out that
for folks that are going to be having access to our assessment here
in the very you got it really changed the way your brain has been
thinking if you're a medical provider, or mental health, provider,
because we're not using the language, that the
254
00:28:11.109 --> 00:28:15.109
Dsm. Has huge. We're just not gonna
use it.
255
00:28:15.109 --> 00:28:16.109
We're ditching the Ds.
256
00:28:16.109 --> 00:28:26.109
Yes, yes, yeah. And there's some
really beautiful guidance from.
257
00:28:26.109 --> 00:28:27.109
Yeah.
258
00:28:27.109 --> 00:28:50.109
And her team in the adult autism
assessment handbook that I really think it's it's very
considerate.
259
00:28:50.109 --> 00:28:51.109
Yeah.
260
00:28:51.109 --> 00:28:52.109
It's considerately written in the
sense that, just like you're saying here, Candace, that you know,
it's internalized ableism. Really, you know, kind of like the you
know, since autism have been identified in the forties and
studied.
261
00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:54.109
You know it's been, you know. It's
been something that's extraordinary.
262
00:28:54.109 --> 00:29:24.109
You talk about stigma around
borderline personality, you know, like there's like an
extraordinary stigma around what it means to be autistic that you
know, because the presentation and pop culture media has been so
geared towards like really you know, not showing the wide spectrum
in which autism
263
00:29:25.109 --> 00:29:34.109
Yes.
264
00:29:34.109 --> 00:29:35.109
Yes.
265
00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:36.109
can present. You know it's there is a
very narrow slice lens on, you know, like your mathematical genius,
you know, person, you know, and a male body person.
266
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And then you know what about the rest
of us that don't you know, would never have identified, you know,
and I think this is interesting.
267
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Even, just clinically speaking.
268
00:29:47.109 --> 00:30:02.109
You know I don't know how I would
have responded to a clinician asking if I had thought about you
know being on autistic as as opposed to how I you know you know,
have I thought about being borderline personality?
269
00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:28.109
You know, it's like both things come
with some degree of stigma, you know, and it's only been through
the investigation of what autism actually means in more recent
literature.
270
00:30:28.109 --> 00:30:29.109
Got it?
271
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That's coming out, you know, by
autistic people. And it's like, Oh, I can totally relate to
this.
272
00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:37.109
Yes, this is me, and it's like felt
in a very different way than for instance, the borderline
personality which felt like a being misunderstood.
273
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Another way in which I'm being
misunderstood, whereas the autism diagnosis, even reading it in the
Dsm.
274
00:30:42.109 --> 00:30:50.109
Which took a lot of 150 h of
continuing Ed on like, how what does this mean?
275
00:30:50.109 --> 00:31:06.109
You know I'm like, oh, now I can
identify with these things because there's other ways that this
shows up.
276
00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:07.109
Yeah.
277
00:31:07.109 --> 00:31:15.109
And it's really so much more about
kind of the inner experience than it is necessarily about what is
going on on the outside and I think there's so much that I'm you
know, the intersex here with my own other interests around.
278
00:31:15.109 --> 00:31:33.109
You know, like kind of how we're
socialized. And then sort of ideas coming out of more of the trauma
and addiction field of, you know, codependency and contrasting like
that code of dependency model with kind of this idea of masking and
you know what what you know I just think that
279
00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:42.109
this is where it's such a cool place
in the field to really advance.
280
00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:43.109
Yes.
281
00:31:43.109 --> 00:31:52.109
You know what actually matters for
autistic people and our well-being, you know, and they think for
women specifically.
282
00:31:52.109 --> 00:31:57.109
And we presented on this in our talk,
you know but one of the things that just really is.
283
00:31:57.109 --> 00:32:02.109
My, you know. Probably kind of if I
had to nutshell a life passion, you know.
284
00:32:02.109 --> 00:32:06.109
It's like protection of women and
girls and sexual violence.
285
00:32:06.109 --> 00:32:32.109
Being a very big, part of that kind
of, you know, work and desire to correct, and the experiences of
victimization that will occur can occur throughout someone's
lifetime, you know, really means there's something else that we
need to be doing to help awesome.
286
00:32:32.109 --> 00:32:38.109
Yeah.
287
00:32:38.109 --> 00:32:39.109
Absolutely.
288
00:32:39.109 --> 00:32:40.109
You know safety and well being and
like, if we you know, and they don't, you know.
289
00:32:40.109 --> 00:32:48.109
Yeah, like, so that just there's so
much more we can do once we have identified kind of how autism can
show up.
290
00:32:48.109 --> 00:33:02.109
You know, in female people, and what
those specific needs are, and regarding kind of yeah, coming
in.
291
00:33:02.109 --> 00:33:03.109
Yeah.
292
00:33:03.109 --> 00:33:05.109
And I think a lot of it is about
healthy relationships, education and things that may be.
293
00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:09.109
I
agree.
294
00:33:09.109 --> 00:33:10.109
Yeah. Oh!
295
00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:15.109
We're not modeling when in our family
systems, particularly coming to a late date, you realize what your
family was also somewhere neuro different on the neurode
spectrum.
296
00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:23.109
And okay, where you know, it's like
intergenerational. Looking back.
297
00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:24.109
Truly!
298
00:33:24.109 --> 00:33:27.109
But like that teacher about like what
is, you know, and you know, from an inner affirm, like nervous
system like, I think this is where my poly bagel theory stuff
is.
299
00:33:27.109 --> 00:33:33.109
It's like what brings me ventral
which might not.
300
00:33:33.109 --> 00:33:46.109
What be? What brings everybody else
to ventral? I might find vegetable glass, garden, and use, find
ventral, you know, like going to a party right like, you know.
301
00:33:46.109 --> 00:33:47.109
Yeah, with my jelly smelling my
gelling shoes.
302
00:33:47.109 --> 00:33:52.109
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, like, right,
it's like, I want, you know, it's like smelling the shoe instead
of.
303
00:33:52.109 --> 00:34:01.109
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I don't
want to wear them. I just want to smell them.
304
00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:07.109
They make me feel good. But you said
some really important things, you know, in terms of.
305
00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:08.109
Right.
306
00:34:08.109 --> 00:34:15.109
So we do the assessment, and then we
can't just stop there we can't just go into treatment that looks
like the non autistic treatment approach.
307
00:34:15.109 --> 00:34:18.109
We've got to look at providing
support for healthy.
308
00:34:18.109 --> 00:34:24.109
The word is relative, but
relationships, especially if you come from a religious background
where there's a lot of shame around sexuality and intimacy.
309
00:34:24.109 --> 00:34:33.109
And we've got a lot of young
occupational people getting online. They're engaging with people
sexually.
310
00:34:33.109 --> 00:34:37.109
They don't know what's going on. So
it's like, there's got to be support in education around that.
311
00:34:37.109 --> 00:34:40.109
There's got to be support about pure
victimization.
312
00:34:40.109 --> 00:34:42.109
Healthy boundaries, relational
victimization there's got to be support around communication of
needs.
313
00:34:42.109 --> 00:34:51.109
Wants desires. How do you feel, seen,
known, heard, and understood?
314
00:34:51.109 --> 00:34:57.109
There's got to be a lot of support
there, and so I love that our assessment is a beautiful starting
point.
315
00:34:57.109 --> 00:35:02.109
And I also love that we created a
long form which you and I can get through.
316
00:35:02.109 --> 00:35:05.109
But for some, if we're handing it
over to an autistic person to check, it can be incredibly
overwhelming.
317
00:35:05.109 --> 00:35:12.109
I
get it. I've got the brain and so we're also creating a short
form.
318
00:35:12.109 --> 00:35:19.109
We're in edits of that right now
which I'm excited about.
319
00:35:19.109 --> 00:35:20.109
Yeah.
320
00:35:20.109 --> 00:35:29.109
And so do you feel comfortable, maybe
just going through and just throwing out some of the sections for
folks as a teaser. You know, where there will be more questions in
each of these sections where you can kind of take a deeper dive
that look into the world of autistic females.
321
00:35:29.109 --> 00:35:37.109
Yes, yeah. So kind of. So the way we
have this laid out is.
322
00:35:37.109 --> 00:35:43.109
Kind of presentation of the
neuroirmative model for autism assessment.
323
00:35:43.109 --> 00:35:49.109
And then breaking down each of the
criteria. So for?
324
00:35:49.109 --> 00:36:02.109
How do we even move away for
identification? Sort of it's kind of like a way of collaborative
identification, I think, is how Devita Hartman and her team talk
about the you know.
325
00:36:02.109 --> 00:36:03.109
Hmm!
326
00:36:03.109 --> 00:36:04.109
But where we're looking at exploring
together as opposed to, you know, from a power perspective like I'm
giving you a diagnosis right?
327
00:36:04.109 --> 00:36:14.109
Like, so just in terms of tone,
there's sort of an element of, you know.
328
00:36:14.109 --> 00:36:15.109
Here are autistic ways of
communicating and interacting with others.
329
00:36:15.109 --> 00:36:45.109
You know, like, for instance,
worrying whether you're talking too much or not enough in social
situations like, be wondering what's the right way to act we're
making kind of significant efforts to observe or find out rules
prior to engaging in kind of a new situation you know, ding
330
00:36:45.109 --> 00:36:46.109
Yeah.
331
00:36:46.109 --> 00:36:49.109
ding ding flag on this one, you know.
Is it easier for them to talk at length about certain topics than
others?
332
00:36:49.109 --> 00:36:53.109
You know, or lose track, perhaps of
whether others are still listening, if sharing about an interest
area.
333
00:36:53.109 --> 00:37:06.109
And you know it's like this, you
know, or can you get bored or agitated?
334
00:37:06.109 --> 00:37:07.109
Yeah.
335
00:37:07.109 --> 00:37:08.109
If people are talking about things
that are not of interest, you know it's like these are autistic
ways of communicating like that's normal in autistic community.
336
00:37:08.109 --> 00:37:18.109
It's like we are with people, and I
love that.
337
00:37:18.109 --> 00:37:19.109
Yeah, yeah.
338
00:37:19.109 --> 00:37:20.109
Our relationship is we have similar
special interests, talk and talk and be like Uhhuh.
339
00:37:20.109 --> 00:37:26.109
Unload your wisdom, girl like? Yes,
you know, but so that's a one.
340
00:37:26.109 --> 00:37:35.109
And then so a 2 is autistic
experiences of non-spoken or non-verbal communication.
341
00:37:35.109 --> 00:37:39.109
And so here we might be assessing
like, what's that?
342
00:37:39.109 --> 00:37:49.109
Felt experience with either giving or
receiving icons. Because, again, it's not that you can't do it.
343
00:37:49.109 --> 00:37:50.109
Yup!
344
00:37:50.109 --> 00:37:56.109
It, you know. Thank you are trained
to look at me when I'm talking to you, for you know, for many of us
right.
345
00:37:56.109 --> 00:37:57.109
Hmm!
346
00:37:57.109 --> 00:37:58.109
So it's not so much do they give eye
contact from a clinician observer.
347
00:37:58.109 --> 00:38:05.109
Lens do I notice my contact? It's
more. Tell me what it feels like when you know some.
348
00:38:05.109 --> 00:38:08.109
You gotta look in someone's eyes is
looking into yours.
349
00:38:08.109 --> 00:38:14.109
You know. Maybe it's like, Are there
certain forms of communication that are easier than others?
350
00:38:14.109 --> 00:38:23.109
Which is certainly true for me. I'm
with, you know, especially if it's something that might be
conflictual or challenging, like.
351
00:38:23.109 --> 00:38:44.109
I
would much rather write it than have to be confronted with saying
things out loud, and I think with that there's also just more that
I've learned around, maybe having some more respect for the reality
of selective like mutism.
352
00:38:44.109 --> 00:38:50.109
Hmm!
353
00:38:50.109 --> 00:38:58.109
Yeah, yeah.
354
00:38:58.109 --> 00:38:59.109
Yeah.
355
00:38:59.109 --> 00:39:07.109
And where there are circumstances in
which it hasn't been possible for me to speak, you know, even if I
prepared for it, even if I scripted it out at the moment, comes and
passes, and I cannot do it.
356
00:39:07.109 --> 00:39:14.109
Yeah.
357
00:39:14.109 --> 00:39:15.109
Yes.
358
00:39:15.109 --> 00:39:18.109
And now that I know that's like
because my autistic preferences for communication, and we're easier
at harder for me and sometimes than others as opposed to an element
of my codependency, that means that I have how to have a voice yet
or you know it's like
359
00:39:18.109 --> 00:39:19.109
Yeah.
360
00:39:19.109 --> 00:39:36.109
it's very different. Lens. It's like
I can respect and honor.
361
00:39:36.109 --> 00:39:37.109
Yeah.
362
00:39:37.109 --> 00:39:38.109
This is hard for me, and what do I
need to do to support myself and either nervous system, wise
getting regulated to a place where I can have enough cues of safety
to have a nervous system that cooperates and allows me to come or
are there other modes in which I
363
00:39:38.109 --> 00:39:45.109
can share this information. So yeah,
like, there's sort of nuances and kind of preferences around how we
communicate.
364
00:39:45.109 --> 00:39:56.109
And then the a 3 is the autistic
experiences of developing mainten and understanding friendships and
relationships.
365
00:39:56.109 --> 00:40:21.109
I
think this is, you know, really, where there can be incredible work
done from like on a clinical level, just with friendship,
timelines, and the nature of that exploration here.
366
00:40:21.109 --> 00:40:22.109
Hmm!
367
00:40:22.109 --> 00:40:30.109
But what you might be exploring with
a client is really, you know, stories about being bullied, excluded
like since childhood may be always feeling different, you know,
kind of like I don't belong, you know, for me.
368
00:40:30.109 --> 00:40:34.109
Yeah.
369
00:40:34.109 --> 00:40:35.109
Yeah.
370
00:40:35.109 --> 00:40:48.109
I
always felt like an alien, had a big special interest in Ets and
Ufos for a very long time, like, you know.
371
00:40:48.109 --> 00:40:53.109
Yeah, yeah.
372
00:40:53.109 --> 00:40:54.109
Yeah.
373
00:40:54.109 --> 00:40:57.109
Pick me up no, or like with
friendship, kind of relationships like I have tended to either be
older and have much younger friends, or even, you know, more likely
now, in today's world, my friends are all in, their you know,
sixties like I have a page.
374
00:40:57.109 --> 00:40:58.109
Yeah, same, yeah.
375
00:40:58.109 --> 00:41:01.109
Like I have much older friends, and
you know, and I do.
376
00:41:01.109 --> 00:41:13.109
You know, it's kind of like there is
an element where this shows up too.
377
00:41:13.109 --> 00:41:14.109
Yeah.
378
00:41:14.109 --> 00:41:15.109
It's like, you know, it's like, Oh,
cause I you know I have like this, you know, reference for right
like my elders, and like kind of then it can put me in this like
position of you know, I think people might perceive.
379
00:41:15.109 --> 00:41:21.109
Oh, you're you know you're making
yourself less than you know from a framework, you know.
380
00:41:21.109 --> 00:41:24.109
But it's like, No, I just really it's
like, I think Candace is amazing.
381
00:41:24.109 --> 00:41:30.109
You know. And so it's like, you know,
and she's, you know, hanging you, hey?
382
00:41:30.109 --> 00:41:37.109
And I look up to her right and like
there's so there can be this sort of idea of like, yeah, that
elevation and friendships.
383
00:41:37.109 --> 00:41:38.109
Yeah, yeah.
384
00:41:38.109 --> 00:41:45.109
And what that means. And yet, you
know and like, let's not judge that from the outside.
385
00:41:45.109 --> 00:41:51.109
Yes, I was. Gonna say that right
instead of like, oh, that's codependent, like I, one of the things
Ali, as you're talking.
386
00:41:51.109 --> 00:41:57.109
And I'm aware of the time you and I
could talk for hours.
387
00:41:57.109 --> 00:42:04.109
What are the things that I'm aware
of, though, is just recently in my adult relationships with
what?
388
00:42:04.109 --> 00:42:24.109
Who I thought were friends that
didn't take the time to get to know me and my autism, who really
started to, as I noticed just there was just some unhealthy
dynamics where I was considered codependent and labeled in certain
ways.
389
00:42:24.109 --> 00:42:29.109
And then, if I was overwhelmed and
needed to take space, then it was like they would kind of count me,
and I would try to expl.
390
00:42:29.109 --> 00:42:38.109
You know, I just need space like
there's a lot going on.
391
00:42:38.109 --> 00:42:42.109
And it was like, Well, what's wrong
with it? Kids not personal doing all I could.
392
00:42:42.109 --> 00:42:58.109
And then just even in one instance,
where there was just a use where it was like there was this
manipulation, this, you know, sitting right up in my face, staring
at me like a narcissistic abuse like that coercion trying to
intimidate me and so I was able to
393
00:42:58.109 --> 00:43:05.109
have enough regularulation in my
system to get through that. But that awareness of these people
don't.
394
00:43:05.109 --> 00:43:13.109
They're not taking the time to
understand. They're not being culturally sensitive to the culture
of autism and neuro difference.
395
00:43:13.109 --> 00:43:18.109
I'm noticing that it is really
dysregulating me to stay around them.
396
00:43:18.109 --> 00:43:22.109
You know. And so I had to make some
decisions there around that.
397
00:43:22.109 --> 00:43:30.109
But what happens a lot of times if
we're not aware of that, we just stay in it.
398
00:43:30.109 --> 00:43:34.109
So this is why that section on the
assessment is so important.
399
00:43:34.109 --> 00:43:37.109
Because I think people when they're
assessing they just go.
400
00:43:37.109 --> 00:43:42.109
Oh, where you bullied! Came. Move on
to the next thing, but it's like No.
401
00:43:42.109 --> 00:43:50.109
What really does that mean? What
really does peer victimization for autistic people and autistic
females look like?
402
00:43:50.109 --> 00:44:03.109
And then also relational
victimization. Let's really get down to those that brass tacks. And
let's then really look at, how can we actually support you in
treatment planning around that?
403
00:44:03.109 --> 00:44:08.109
Yes, yes.
404
00:44:08.109 --> 00:44:16.109
Instead of me changing the way I'm
showing up or I'm codependent, or I'm too needy or I'm cold and
distant.
405
00:44:16.109 --> 00:44:23.109
Oh, I just cut someone off. No, let's
look at the trauma around that, and maybe do some trouble work
around.
406
00:44:23.109 --> 00:44:34.109
Why you had it end those
relationships. And then let's really kind of break it down and look
at how can we help you start to vet people in a way that keeps you
safe?
407
00:44:34.109 --> 00:44:42.109
That is so important. Yes, like that.
Like the vetting right?
408
00:44:42.109 --> 00:44:43.109
Vetting.
409
00:44:43.109 --> 00:44:44.109
Bring the the level of discernment
right like what?
410
00:44:44.109 --> 00:44:45.109
Yes.
411
00:44:45.109 --> 00:44:49.109
Like what actually makes a friend.
And can't you know?
412
00:44:49.109 --> 00:44:50.109
Yes.
413
00:44:50.109 --> 00:44:51.109
And I think especially like for women
in recovery work for sex and love addiction.
414
00:44:51.109 --> 00:45:00.109
You know, it's like that. That
element of pacing, you know.
415
00:45:00.109 --> 00:45:01.109
Yes.
416
00:45:01.109 --> 00:45:02.109
It's over time. Like, how do I
develop? What does that actually look like?
417
00:45:02.109 --> 00:45:05.109
You know what are the red flags?
418
00:45:05.109 --> 00:45:09.109
Oh, my! Gosh! Yes!
419
00:45:09.109 --> 00:45:10.109
Yes.
420
00:45:10.109 --> 00:45:12.109
And can we develop some formula like,
you know, education that's actually like cohesive.
421
00:45:12.109 --> 00:45:29.109
Because all of my education around
those things has come piecemeal through the aftermath crisis, and
as a psychotherapist, great like, interested in studying to figure
it all out you know, it's like, can we synthesize all of the
information that we know about manipulative abuseive
422
00:45:29.109 --> 00:45:45.109
predatory offender. People right to
kind of get like these are red flags of which charm you're the
greatest, you know, like love bombing right like there's so many 3
pants that can show that you.
423
00:45:45.109 --> 00:45:47.109
Oh, my! Gosh! Oh, my! Gosh!
424
00:45:47.109 --> 00:45:52.109
And then you're caught completely off
guard, you know.
425
00:45:52.109 --> 00:45:53.109
Yes.
426
00:45:53.109 --> 00:46:00.109
But if we know, wait, someone does.
Didn't know me that well, and I'm there some special everything
that's something I need to register.
427
00:46:00.109 --> 00:46:01.109
Yes.
428
00:46:01.109 --> 00:46:04.109
Maybe a queue to examine right like
that might mean something other than what they're telling me, you
know, like there, you know, there might be something else going on,
but I think we do.
429
00:46:04.109 --> 00:46:14.109
I
have needed, like very directive information around how to detect
potential.
430
00:46:14.109 --> 00:46:23.109
Manipulation in order. Now have a way
better of like, yeah, I don't want to be part of that at the what
did I do wrong? Right?
431
00:46:23.109 --> 00:46:24.109
Yeah.
432
00:46:24.109 --> 00:46:33.109
Umhm! Oh, my gosh, yes, yes, no! Same
here. Same here, and I'm almost 50 and so it's like we can still
fall victim to that.
433
00:46:33.109 --> 00:46:38.109
So I as you were saying, love
bombing. I was thinking of that, you know.
434
00:46:38.109 --> 00:46:39.109
We're love bombed, and then it's
anger.
435
00:46:39.109 --> 00:46:40.109
Yeah.
436
00:46:40.109 --> 00:46:45.109
Bombed, where all it's like it does.
The switch flips.
437
00:46:45.109 --> 00:46:47.109
And so then we're like, Well, wait,
you just love me.
438
00:46:47.109 --> 00:46:59.109
A
minute ago, and then how is it that in one text all of a sudden,
I'm in trouble, and I'm doing something wrong and I don't
understand, because I'm not seeing what's going on here right.
439
00:46:59.109 --> 00:47:05.109
So I'm excited about our assessment.
I want the world to know it's coming out into the world.
440
00:47:05.109 --> 00:47:10.109
We're hoping to get it into the
appendix of the chapter.
441
00:47:10.109 --> 00:47:18.109
That will be part of the book
altogether. Us that Jenna Romerzma edited, and then Dick Schwartz,
the founder of Ifs, did the forward to.
442
00:47:18.109 --> 00:47:24.109
So we're super excited about so stay
tuned for that, and then Ally and I oh, my gosh!
443
00:47:24.109 --> 00:47:30.109
Okay.
444
00:47:30.109 --> 00:47:31.109
Okay.
445
00:47:31.109 --> 00:47:34.109
We'll be presenting for 4 h. I'm
so thankful for you, I think it's a week or 2 before I start my
psychedelic and program my psychedelic assistance therapy program
through Cis.
446
00:47:34.109 --> 00:47:47.109
So we've got a lot coming to us for
September, but those of you clinicians, Medical providers I don't
actually think you have to be a certified sex.
447
00:47:47.109 --> 00:47:52.109
Addiction therapist to attend through
itap.com.
448
00:47:52.109 --> 00:48:02.109
But you know, if you follow either of
us on social media, or you know you're just connected to us, feel
free to email so that you can attend.
449
00:48:02.109 --> 00:48:10.109
It'll be 4 h we are gonna take a
deep dive into autistic females and really deep dive into this
assessment.
450
00:48:10.109 --> 00:48:17.109
I
will probably do a little bit of teasing out between what does it
look like for autistic males versus females?
451
00:48:17.109 --> 00:48:22.109
So those of you that are curious
enough anyways stay tuned for that. So that's coming. I think it's
September fourteenth.
452
00:48:22.109 --> 00:48:24.109
Awesome, so.
453
00:48:24.109 --> 00:48:31.109
I'm guessing. I am. So yeah, I'm so
thankful to you, Ally. You're just a god.
454
00:48:31.109 --> 00:48:39.109
Send in the world of autistic
females, and getting this word out there, and you've really
inspired me to also up just my level of, I think, just awareness as
to my own process as an autistic woman.
455
00:48:39.109 --> 00:48:51.109
And just being really supportive and
capacity and just being really supportive and compassionate towards
my autistic female clients.
456
00:48:51.109 --> 00:48:53.109
So thank you so much for all you're
doing in the world, and for being on fabulously Candice.
457
00:48:53.109 --> 00:48:58.109
Yes, thank you for supporting me, and
my voice and, you know, like kind of the you know what helps
right?
458
00:48:58.109 --> 00:49:08.109
Like someone that believes in you,
and says, that's actually really important to say, why don't you
come on and talk about that?
459
00:49:08.109 --> 00:49:21.109
And we appreciate. Yeah, just you and
the space and the autistic clinicians in the world.
460
00:49:21.109 --> 00:49:22.109
Yes.
461
00:49:22.109 --> 00:49:26.109
Right that are like really change
makers here, because we're no like neuro affirming care is is where
we are.
462
00:49:26.109 --> 00:49:27.109
Yeah.
463
00:49:27.109 --> 00:49:28.109
Oh, my gosh! Quality care! It's
quality care. It's best practice.
464
00:49:28.109 --> 00:49:37.109
We've gotta be doing it. We focus on
all the other cultures we've got to focus on cultures of
neurotypes.
465
00:49:37.109 --> 00:49:39.109
Yes.
466
00:49:39.109 --> 00:49:42.109
Now is that time 2023. So, thank you,
sweet friend, and I'll talk to you this afternoon.
467
00:49:42.109 --> 00:49:45.109
Yeah, I'm glad I'll get to meet with
you again.
468
00:49:45.109 --> 00:49:48.109
Take good, care. Thanks, very
much.
469
00:49:48.109 --> 00:49:56.109
Yeah, you, too. I just wanted to say
to the world that love is medicine.
470
00:49:56.109 --> 00:50:04.109
You are love, so please be tender
with your sweet cells in this world that could be so challenging
for all of us.
471
00:50:04.109 --> 00:50:10.109
I'm sending you so much love, so much
compassion, and until next time have a beautiful, beautiful day.
Bye!