Mar 7, 2023
WEBVTT
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Hi, everybody. Season 3. Episode 3 and wow, what a week! It's been.
Okay.
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We have a full moon happening. It's an amethyst month.
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The month of February. Just celebrated a birthday, and my schedules
and routines are completely Jack.
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This week. So I was just telling our guests today that I'm wearing
my gym clothes but you know what we're here.
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I've got foggy brain. I'm forgetful there's all kinds of stuff in
my space this week, because my schedules and routines are off, but
that's really common for me as an autistic person.
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And so, Allie deerboard is with us, and she's become a friend, a
colleague of mine.
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We've had her on before, but I do want to brag about you, Allie,
again.
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You are going to be a regular just so, you know, there's on
fabulous in Candace.
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Alley is a fabulous human being and also an autistic human
being.
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A identifies as a female is a licensed psychotherapist, and has
been in the field for about 15 years and has an expertise in the
treatment of women with complex trauma, and addicted behavior.
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And I also want to add Ali women who are autistic because holy cow,
you have so much research behind you around that Ali has also been
a life on a lifelong quest to better understand herself and the
discovery of her autism earlier this year which is catalized
profound shifts
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In her life and the direction of her professional practice.
Learning more about the female presentation of autistic spectrum
conditions and sharing this important information with others is
her new area focused.
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And yay, you are doing so much work, and I wanna say that, Allie,
for folks who are part of the Itap community.
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So it's the International Institute for Trauma, and addiction
professionals.
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Itap we are presenting in April, at the Itap.
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Sympathium on love addicted or seeking safety, and how we can, you
know, properly, assess and accurately treat autistic females who
are in inpatient and outpatient settings for relationship and
trauma issues so yay welcome to you allie
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Thank you. I'm so glad to be back, and just to be in this process
of continuing to do my own research and figure out ways to get this
information sentences and out to other clinicians and to the
public.
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Yeah. Hmm, hmm.
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I think, especially around the sex, and love addiction and
vulnerability to challenging relationships
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Absolutely that I would say you and I have seen in our field.
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The focus tends to be on autistic mills who are struggling with out
of control sexual behavior.
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But you. We have yet to see, and I've been now A.
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Csat for 10 years this year. Whoa! I have yet to see any
presentation, training, conversation, discussion, consultation,
group about females who are autistic, even Eightyhd, except for the
fabulous Heather Putney, who will be on as well is starting to talk
about it.
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Yes.
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Thank goodness you know, but we haven't seen it. We're not seeing
it.
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We're not seeing a discussion of it, which is really concerning,
because there's so many women that are ending up in outpatient and
inpatient programs being diagnosed as sex addicts.
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Love addicts and borderline dependent personality, disorder,
depressed, anxious, which those fit.
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But the personality disorders don't. So here, back, so that we can
talk about what we'll be presenting on.
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But whatever comes up today comes up today, you know, you just have
a wealth of knowledge.
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And so maybe what we could do is start with just to kind of review,
because sometimes people won't listen to previous podcasts or just
gonna come across this one.
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You know what? Let's talk about the presentation. Maybe the
similarities between autism and borderline.
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You and I have looked at that in the dialogue manual.
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Maybe we start there, does that feel okay? And just how that
creates some confusion for folks?
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And why, how close, clinicians tend to lean on borderline, instead
of actually looking at the autism diagnosis.
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Maybe we start there.
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Okay, yeah, I think that would be a great place to dive in.
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Although I don't have that research in front of me, so I have to
say that it's like, Okay, right?
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Like, let me be pulling this out of the brain file, you know, but I
think one of the key factors in sort of that diagnostic
consideration of borderline that shows up is the emotional
disregulation.
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Absolutely.
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Yup!
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The kind of the you know, attempts to avoid real or perceived
abandonment, diffuse identity, sort of structures where there's a
bit of, you know, kind of like obvious, repetitive outward changes
in presentation or appearance, right like kind of trying on
different costumes almost
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Hmm, hmm, hmm, yeah, yeah, intense relationships.
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As known as no intense
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Very intense intense, chaotic relationships that seem very
addictive.
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Right? Yeah, and that
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Right like that. Intensity like that. This is my special person,
which then, from a borderline perspective, right is either being,
you know, highly pedestalized and valued.
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Yes, yeah, yes, I love you. I hate you.
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And subsequently valued. Yes, right right
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Right. So for you and I, being autistic as well as clinicians and
truly experts in this arena. What's fascinating about what you just
said is, I'm hearing autism all over the place
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Yes, same right. And now that I know about autism because I can
frame my own life experience and then match it with all of the
literature.
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It is new.
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And you know what exists, you know, but kind of putting together
all of these pieces that really haven't yet been put together in
any real form, because research specific to the female autistic
population is pretty damn new like, like, you know, and especially
if you're kind of going in the more even narrow focus of
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The you know the sexual and relational experiences of autistic
females, because one of the bigger, you know, gender for sex
differences that emerges is that girls, you know, assigned female
at birth like girls do tend to have more desire for interest in
social relationships and
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Reciprocity than cisgender autistic males.
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And so out of the gate. There's more social desire, but not
necessarily the internal hardware to make sense of what's going on
as social dynamics get increasingly complex.
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And so even the emergence of autistic trait showing up more in
adolescents for girls, whereas for boys they might be more off, you
know more observed earlier in childhood.
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Yeah.
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You know. But then you get this like, you know, teenage girls going
to treatment centers and getting diagnosed as borderline, which
isn't even an appropriate clinical diagnosis for someone under the
age of 18 right?
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Yes.
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And getting that is like, you know, something's wrong with you when
really it's their autism showing up and not knowing how to
explain.
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Yeah.
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And the dysregulation that occurs, and I can't tell you so I might
get enraged, or I might quiet, you know, flee, and run away, and my
relationships have.
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Yes, yes.
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You burned bridges all over the place, but it's not because I'm
being manipulative.
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Hmm.
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It's not because I'm you know, like intentionally trying to get
someone to react a certain way.
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It's like that. I am an other confusion about what the hell
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Yeah, yeah. You just said that beautifully. Yeah. And so what
happens is clinicians are not educated enough in these treatment
centers to know what to look for with female teens and adult
females.
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And so they literally just go to a diagnosis of borderline.
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Right.
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You know, and then and then other diagnoses, dependent personality,
disorder, right and I think where they, you know, when we see the
diagnosis of depression and anxiety. K.
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That is accurate. We see co-occurring diagnoses of those 2 with
autism.
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We see a co-occurrence with Adhd as well.
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Yeah.
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But again, because so much research has been done on autistic
boys.
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You're right. It's very new. And so you and I have literally, I
mean you really to give you credit.
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Have taken a deep dive in the ocean of research that does exist to
really start to sift through.
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The the research that is out there for autistic females.
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And let me just ask you this as you are sifting through the
research.
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Do you feel like the focus is deficit based still?
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Or is the language starting to change where it's more like
supportive and diversity based around autistic females
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I mean
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Okay.
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There's both. I think, that just given the language of the Dsm.
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Which does say depicits in social reciprocity, deficits in, you
know, or whatever right?
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Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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So because of that like that, language is included, and also many
of the testing instruments right?
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But a bit like the kind of gold standard assessment, like the ados,
or whatever right it's also been norm.
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Their around the deficit based language, and the primarily, as this
gender male.
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Yes, yes.
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You know, population. So the more so there is a shift like in the
literature.
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That's more looking at the kind of what the female autistic
phenotype, you know, or more of a, you know, kind of a gender
nonconforming
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Presentation more and more of that clinical research and
information is in integrating, like intersectionality and social
disability, justice.
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Good.
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And you know, really kind of putting a different spin.
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And I think one of the things that's to me the most striking about
what I'm finding specific to some of the relational
difficulties.
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Good for us. Is csats right? And sort of prominent professionals
kind of have.
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You know, we're absolutely seeing in our offices, and then for me
trying to continue to make sense of my own.
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Yeah.
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Hmm.
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Life, history, right? Like there's so much that I'm learning about
where they're real limitations to traditional sex education or rate
prevention education, which is my background.
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And I think so for me. What's most like the reason I'm on such a
deep dive like this is actually like the most invested in any sort
of research project I've been since the I was working with the
repeatment center at Ucla and did a deep Dive as part
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Yeah.
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of that work in looking at the incidents of sexual harassment, peer
sexual harassment in middle school students, and how that
transition and age, from elementary to middle school is so the the
kids are so vulnerable, and that's across the board but then when
you start to
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narrow in, and look at the the kids that are maybe not even
diagnosed, but perceived as different from their neurotypically
developing peers right?
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Like are, you know, like the rates of victimization?
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Are, you know, really astounding, like even comparative, to how
astounding to me they already are
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Yeah, yeah, well, I think what you're saying is so prevalent and
it's pertinent to what we're talking about.
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Because if we look at so again, here you have female teens who come
into a treatment center or female autistic teams.
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K undiagnosed, coming in, or same with females who are adults
coming in and based on current presentation.
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We've literally you and I both know these big name inpatient
treatment centers that don't actually contact the primary clinician
to get a history.
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So they go off. Current presentation, which, as we said in the
beginning, looks like borderline.
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So many of these clinicians who don't know that autism has a
similar presentation.
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But if you start to ask questions, about history, like you're
talking about in childhood, and you know, with friendships and
socially and sensory issues, sensory processing issues and issues,
with being bullied and being vulnerable with communication and not
understanding, people's intentions and you start to see
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A pattern repetitive behavior. There's another one, right?
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Yes.
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Right getting anxious if schedules and routines are off.
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As I spoke about, and so if you, if clinicians were to take some
time and do a proper assessment, which is what you and I are in the
process of creating like a screening assessment, they would see
we're not talking about a personality, disorder, we're talking
about a
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Neuro developmental condition. Right? So I I just know that,
especially in our community with the Csats, a lot of folks are
gonna want us to talk about what?
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What are autistic traits that we're we're looking for in women who
come into these treatment centers.
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So maybe we talk about that, you know. What do you look for
you?
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And I said it, but maybe we say it again. What do you what to look
for? What do you look for?
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You've got a woman who's coming in. She's describing feeling like a
love addict.
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She's describing having, you know, just these really intense
relationships.
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Then then where do they go? Right? Where does the clinician go?
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Because immediately the clinicians gonna be like, Oh,
borderline!
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Instead of asking, what right?
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Yeah.
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Right, you know, or just, you know, like, you know, kind of
attachment, injury, which also be true.
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Yup!
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Right like considering the likely amounts of sort of feeling
different, that the person's already internalized right like for
me, one of the things that's been really interesting to look at
here is just even in terms of
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Yup!
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Expanding this idea of love addict, which kind of ends up being
sort of transferred on to whoever the romantic partner is right,
but not, you know.
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Same here.
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But did this intense, special person? Is that a framework through
which all previous relationships have also been kind of couched
right like for me, I always had one best friend, and really
struggled like this came up which was fine until high school and
then it got more complicated, and and then certainly in college I
remember being really just
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Didn't know what to make of my best friend, having other friends,
that she did things with, and didn't invite me like.
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Yeah. Yes.
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And really like, you know, and I wasn't a love addicted to her.
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Yeah.
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But really thrown into confusion, because, you know, I think one of
the things that really is striking me like is where the like.
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The not knowing the levels of relationship. Right? Like all way,
you know, like crossing an oversharer, you know, you know, and,
like, you know, let you know that there's levels of intimacy, and
like the way all of my relationships formed which was oh, you like
me, too, we're together and
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Same here, same same here.
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Like almost immediate merger, no assessment process at all about
anything other than there.
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Yeah.
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You like me, too, or sometimes not even you like me too.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's just you like me and gonna be like up into desire for me that
I didn't know or have any social communication skills or a script
to do any kind of you know, rejection right?
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Yeah.
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Oh, my, gosh, you too. Okay, yeah, yeah.
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Like I would give my phone number and then avoid calls, because,
even, yeah, you know, like, back when we get phone numbers right
you know, I wouldn't even think till I give the wrong number.
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You know, it's like, you know, just there's such a there's such a
naativity.
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Oh, yeah.
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Yes.
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That is, that remains across time right like the level of naiveness
that don't say in the lecture right that I had around, you know,
kind of safety parameters for myself, peers of all genders, really,
but certainly with my male peers, you know, with is still,
problematic for me as
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A 43 year old. Female adult right like that.
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I don't now I can understand is my brain doesn't have that hard
wire right?
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Yeah.
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So the best I can do is learn, and I became a csat because I went
to a treatment center that was run by csats, and they told me what
to do to get better.
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And I did all those things, and then I went and studied all the
things, and became kind of here.
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But then this piece, and where the autism is not being looked at,
and where we do have a a vulnerability, especially as a female like
the number one risk factor for sexual violence in any sort of
mystical way, is being is having of the giants, like being born
female right that is the
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Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah.
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Number one factor. But you add autistic female in and the like.
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It is another vulnerability factor, because we have difficulty you
know, like what the literature says is like discriminating between
like what's appropriate behavior across settings, you know.
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And so I think back. And it's like I used to get a lot of feedback
from peers or my family that I was like too public in too much
public affection.
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I get 2 touchy fee like, you know, like you know, no boundary
system, right like what's appropriate or not, you know which then
can start to look like exhibitionism, you know.
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Yup!
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Yeah. Yup. Yup.
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Add from a sex addiction lens. Right? So is it bad, or is it how
you were groomed, or what you were taught was normalized?
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You know, and I think there's so much of us like trying to, you
know, taking what other people tell us as truth, you know, like,
I'm gonna believe what you tell me, and not knowing how to really
detect someone being manipulative.
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And I'm just, you know, I think, especially in terms of the
vulnerability and risks for autistic females.
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Oh, yeah.
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You know that are influenced by our highly pornography, and with
only fans sex industry. Right?
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That's sort of is promoting, grooming, and exploitation of young
people.
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And there're but they're mimicking what they see is the thing to
do, and the way to be normal.
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Yeah.
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And yet, you know, it's like, is this harming me?
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Yup!
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How do I really feel about this and just sort of where there's so
much work?
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I think we have to do, and really understanding more about where
the behaviors are you know, like what's really going on, because it
can look like something you can look like a lot of things.
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Yeah.
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But with really knowing the person right and kind of like knowing
more about some of the intersections here, I think we're really
gonna find the ability to do a better job protecting our most
vulnerable people because one of the things that I love about this
literature here I'm sorry
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I love it, I love it so much. That's an endy.
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I'm on kind of like a total info
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Yes, yes.
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Love language. So I'm with you right now. I'm with you.
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I'm listening.
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Like what I think is really cool for me, especially like having
been a rate prevention educator for a decade, and you know, is that
one of the things here it talks about how you know sex, LED, will
you know the more?
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Our young people are educated about healthy sex and sex
education.
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The more they you know they'll have less rates of abuse.
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But half of the victims in this one study, which will present at
Itap.
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But it'll also maybe share a link but this is a convey list
twenty-twenty study, 22, on evidence that 9 autistic women out of
10 have been victims of sexual violence.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Oh!
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.000
So brand new research. And this is where I love where things are
heading, because it says that half of the victims in this study
were below the age of consent, and therefore out of the scope of
applied sex education, right?
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Wow!
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.000
We're working with miners, and the vulnerability there.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:22.000
And here's this, this is my microwave comment on this section is
expecting minors with a disability to protect themselves.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.000
Hmm.
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Thanks to education, can be acquainted to another form of victim
blaming
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.000
Hmm, Mike drop
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:40.000
The most efficient protection, in especially in the case of
vulnerable individuals, is the presence of a vigilant
caregiver.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:25:02.000
Right. And so when I think about my own experiences of sexual
violence, right and my behavior never changed across context,
right?
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:13.000
The only thing that was different was whether or not I was in the
presence of a predator or a real true peer, or whether peers were
with me and got me the fuck out or left me there right only
different throughout the history of my life, about whether or not I
was victimized is whether or not
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.000
Yeah.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.000
someone. Someone else helped me right or
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.000
Yeah. Yup, yup, yeah.
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:29.000
You know, or like right, and that to me is like where we're missing
things, even as csats right like bulletin boundaries and boundaries
is important, like we need scripts like.
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Yes.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:45.000
If you tell me what to say, I can say it, but if if I'm caught off
guard, and one of the things that talks about in the sexual
victimization literature is most breaditors will use surprise as an
element for how they initiate sexual contact it's either surprise
or
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:47.000
Manipulation, right and
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.000
Right which both were going to be completely thrown off guard.
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:57.000
Were already victims of manipulation. All the time we're very
vulnerable to that.
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:58.000
And then again you surprise us. We don't have a script for
anything.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:05.000
We're yeah, we are. We're victims. We end up.
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.000
Yes.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.000
We end up being victimized.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:11.000
And then blamed, and then we internalize it, and then we have shame
and more.
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.000
Yeah.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:21.000
You know I've relapsed, or here I am again, right like, you know,
recording a dangerous person, right?
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:31.000
But one of the things that it also talks about is that autistic
women are more vulnerable to dating, abusive partners. Right?
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Yeah. Yep, yeah. Alright. Yep. Been there. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:39.000
And I think we're being deliberately targeted right like this is a
factor of editor meets.
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:26:41.000 --> 00:27:02.000
Pray and see you know, pulls you in right. And so I haven't gotten
through all this yet, but I am interested as someone in my recovery
who spent 3 weeks and a domestic violence shelter is part of my
like getting getting clear getting clean getting what the fuck is
going you know, kinda get some
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:11.000
Clarity and ground underneath my feet. But there's a lot around, I
think, even just treatment and recognition of the support that
domestic violence.
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000
Yeah.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:18.000
You know, victims need as an autistic female going through this
process right?
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:24.000
Like you throw this person in a shelter which is one of the more
chaotic environments that is, in a mental health.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:25.000
Contacts like
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.000
Oh, it's so chaotic. Yeah, I used. Yep.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.000
Yeah.
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:33.000
I used to work in a dB shelter. It is so chaotic
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:47.000
It's loud. Oh, my gosh!
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.000
Yeah.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:56.000
Yep.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.000
Yeah.
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.000
You've got sometimes use right. This particular shelter had a male
person as a in the unit, children right like people, and just all,
you know, slow, just regulating right I've got to go and navigate
getting advocacy and support systems by myself in the biggest
mental health crisis of
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:08.000
Yeah.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:09.000
Wow, yeah.
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:12.000
my life like, and then, you know, put me back in treatment right,
which is now a whole new social new, because the peers that were
there 3 weeks ago have graduated now I got to deal with new people
right?
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.000
Change. Hmm hmm
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:18.000
It's just like what you know just onus. So it's like, Oh, well,
let's help you not be so dependent.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.000
Let's help you grow yourself up right like, be a functional adult,
which is important.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:35.000
Yes, many of those teachings have become a foundation of like how I
live, a functional with old life, right?
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:36.000
Oh!
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:45.000
But also recognizing that something are not. I'm not.
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.000
Yes.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:47.000
I don't. I don't have the full capacity to be functional with right
like math, right?
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.000
Yeah.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.000
Like my accounting numbers. It's like symbols. It's foreign
language.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:02.000
I can't understand it, you know, and relationally right like
really, that deep assessment of Can I trust this person and
confusion about like love?
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Right like. You know. What's what are the rules? What are you
supposed to do?
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.000
What me so much of it being like sensory seeking
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.000
Oh, my God! Well, and that's why we talked about that.
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:23.000
So let's just I wanna really recap so much of what you're saying,
because there's so much important information and you're just
brilliant.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:24.000
Well, well.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:43.000
So you started off by talking about intense relationships. So when
clinicians, especially Csat, so Csat is certified, sex addiction
therapist for those that are wondering are ha have a client in
their office that is coming to treatment for a female okay, coming
to to treatment for
00:29:43.000 --> 00:30:02.000
Possible sex addiction, maybe love, addiction. We're looking at
instead of just jumping on the borderline bandwagon when you're
looking at traits of autism, we do have a history starting when
we're young of getting in intense friendships.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:10.000
We have one. Typically, if we have one, we have one. They become
our special interest.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:16.000
We're often very rejection sensitive. So if they get friends, we
really really struggle.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:25.000
We struggle to navigate more than one friendship, because it's so
hard to navigate other people's conversations, let alone just the
person in front of us.
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:32.000
So intense relationships are global. It's not just a partner.
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.000
Yes, bye.
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:40.000
So that's the first thing that I want clinicians to hear that we
want to be asking those questions about relationships.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:45.000
And then also we do have a tendency to be well.
00:30:45.000 --> 00:31:06.000
We are victims, that is the reality, being female, autistic, we're
very vulnerable to friends that are bullies, friends that that and
and partners doesn't matter the gender but domestic violence is I
mean the rates of domestic violence for autistic females is
high
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:09.000
And other things, too, like you, said the oversharing.
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:16.000
And I added, meltdowns and shutdowns need to be asked, because it's
not a tantrum and it's not a rage.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000
Fest. There's something happening. So asking the right questions,
you know, taking time to ask about the sensory experience of the
person which no one does.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.000
Treatment centers often have fluorescent lightings. They have
way.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:45.000
Too many people in group. The kitchen area. If they're staying
somewhere again, has a bright light, there's way too much crammed
in a schedule which is very hard for an autistic female autistic
human.
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:51.000
Let alone an autistic female, so do you struggle with change,
sensory processing.
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.000
Tell me about reported behavior, because, you know, we do have
that.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.000
There is this, as you said, the literature talks about this.
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:11.000
There is this naivety, and I say that with compassion, because we
do struggle, as you said, with the safety parameter, we do struggle
with understanding.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:18.000
You know, if this person likes me. Oh, wow! Okay.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:26.000
I don't know. They like me right, and a big part of that again is
because we're not able to really fill out.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:32.000
Can I discern if if if it's okay to like this person back now, I
will say this.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.000
You and I have talked about this before so many autistic
people.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:43.000
We're feelers. We feel a lot. We might not be able to explain what
we feel, but we are sure, failing a lot.
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.000
And so we're intuitive. Believe that or not.
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:49.000
People challenge it. If you want, but I will still speak. For
myself.
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:53.000
I am a very intuitive, intuitive person. I sense.
00:32:53.000 --> 00:33:00.000
I see things I'm very in tune, but I have been gaslighted.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.000
Okay.
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:02.000
My whole fucking life, my people starting when I was young for
seeing something, and then calling it out.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:16.000
No, that's not true. So then I'm like and you're too direct, and
you're aggressive, and you're too much, and you're too intense, and
you're a drama queen right?
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000
Sounds like borderline when I'm autistic, not borderline.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:29.000
So then what happens is as we go up, we get in these peer
relationships, and in these intimate relationships.
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.000
Again. We're feeling not right. The doesn't feel right.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.000
This doesn't feel okay, how they're treating me, does it feel?
Okay?
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Hey? I'm gonna say something I'm gather I'm gas lighted, and then,
Oh, my, gosh, okay, maybe it's me so beat down, beat down, beat
down.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:34:03.000
No wonder why we show up to therapist's office or treatment
centers, and we're a mess, because the neural majority, including
the you know, individuals who we've been in relationship with have
been literally abusing us since we were little and gas lighting
etc.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.000
So but then we get labeled right. We get labeled as being
borderline.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:17.000
When that's not what's happening. This is a case of autism.
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:18.000
Yeah.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.000
This is a case of attachment learning. This is a case of trauma and
trauma bonding, and all of that has to be addressed in
treatment
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.000
Yes, yes, it really. I love that you do. What? A yes, what a
beautiful summary of that!
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:35.000
Yes, like that is, I think, so important.
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Hmm.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:41.000
So important, and even transitions. You and I are talking about
like we've got.
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:49.000
An assessment like I said, coming just coming together and where
we're gonna look at friendships because that's important.
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:52.000
But also transitions
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.000
When you start your period, you know, or moon cycle, right?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.000
It's like no one's talking about that hormones.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:05.000
No one's talking about that menopause. No one's talking to us about
that.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:11.000
And for those of us that are autistic are, it's affecting us, and I
mean it does.
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:29.000
And there are co-occurring health issues that affect us greatly,
that no one's talking about, no one's taking the time to talk
about, because the comfort zone for too many clinicians is a
personality disorder instead of oh, my gosh this fills out of my
will house
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:33.000
to take the time to explore a neuro developmental condition
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000
Right. Yes, and I think that on some level, right, we're still
meeting.
00:35:39.000 --> 00:36:06.000
The general stereotype and bias about what it means to be autistic,
because there's an assumption that you will have been noted as
autistic early in your childhood, and so there's like, you know,
it's like an no one even rules. It.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000
In it's like it's already been ruled out, unless unless maybe you
come in with like Adhd.
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Yeah.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.000
Yeah. Yep.
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.000
But even then no one's really looking at autism, especially for
girls right like so and you're lucky if you're they're even looking
at Adhd because again, there's so many co-occurrences with the
anxiety.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:32.000
And you know the thank you. Not motivated right like.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:33.000
Oh, yeah, but but that's labeled as lazy, sadly right?
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Can't get it together, you know. Yeah.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:45.000
It's like those of us that are Adhd, or add end up getting missed
as Lacy and unmotivated.
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.000
You know, and it and that's sad, too. I my autistic brain got me
through school.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.000
I will say that, but you know, and I flew under the radar.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:02.000
But if you, if I, when I go back, I mean my arms in every picture,
were out like this, I was doing this all the time I was
swinging.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:10.000
I had pictures of me on a swing, I mean I would head bang when I
would, you know, like, have serious meltdowns.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.000
I was very aggressive, which is, has more of an Asperger
flavor.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.000
We don't use that language, it or that term anymore.
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:22.000
But you know, and then I would literally line up my stuffed
answer.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:31.000
I. The play was very repetitive. I would line up my my barbies, you
know I I'm almost 50 people.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.000
So that that was that. Would those were the things that was very
gender specific, you know.
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:41.000
And then, yeah, it's like, so that was. But then I also have
it.
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:47.000
I have a twin brother, and I also would want to play with his
friends, and, like, you know, but then I'm not understood.
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:54.000
I mean, I knew the roles of a game like football or soccer, so I
could fit in there right.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.000
But no one's watching me as I'm lining up as I have repetitive
play, and it's just interesting.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:04.000
Oh! And then if I struggled with friendships, then I I just I had
so much shame about that, because no one was questioning why I
was.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:14.000
I mean, I grew up. I was born in 1,974.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:20.000
So I grew up in the seventies and the eighties.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.000
No.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.000
No one was looking at autism back then, and then we add on, Ali, my
mom was an alcohol like my dad's military.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:30.000
You. It's like compounding factors, right? So it goes back to.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:31.000
Yeah.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:44.000
When I was working with a therapist, and ifs therapist and I, you
know I felt safe enough with her to say I'm autistic, and she said,
No, you're not.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:48.000
You're not autistic. You have trauma
00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:00.000
And my parts inside were pissed, cause I was like, why are you
questioning what my brain, what I know with my brain and I've said
that story so many times.
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:14.000
But you've experienced it, too, which is interesting, Ali, because
if you go back it's you were to go back in time at that treatment
center, and had you have said to the psychiatrist, I'm not
borderline.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:19.000
I'm actually autistic. What do you think that she psychiatrist?
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000
What do you think she would have said you
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:27.000
No, no, you're not. I mean, you know, but it's like, yeah, so.
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:50.000
And I love what you're saying, like I was thinking earlier about
like the you know, like the play, and my best friends like, you
know, growing up, we would write, you know, write novels together
because we're both avid readers, you know, and reading is my first,
you know, napist.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:51.000
Yeah.
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.000
addiction, right, to say like you're taking up all night reading my
books.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:56.000
No sleep, you know, like consequences. My behavior
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.000
I'm doing that now. I'm staying up really late reading a lot of
books
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:12.000
It's like, Oh, that brain stimulation! They love it.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000
Oh, my! Gosh!
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.000
But we would like I would never get past the designing the outfits
and kind of coming up with the name and what she would be wearing,
you know.
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:30.000
But there, no dialogue right and with my barbies I was born in 79,
grew up with the same kind of to those toys right?
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.000
Same.
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:37.000
But it was like getting them all dressed up, and then I'm done, you
know, and with like me, with the animals, it was less about lining
them up, but they would, they were lined up, but it was rotating
them, so that none of them had hurt feelings.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000
About who got to sleep closest to me right, and I think back about
like what you were saying about that empathy piece like, and one is
the things I'm reading about autism. It's like I never really
understood.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.000
It's like I remember having a meltdown as a child who knows?
00:40:53.000 --> 00:41:05.000
Maybe 6, 8, something like that my mom threw away like a you know,
like a home.
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.000
He was like a card, you know, like a phone card back.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Hmm.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.000
When we had phone cards.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:15.000
It was phone card, and I had like I had named it.
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.000
I'd gotten it attached to it. She threw Gray and I remember having
a tantrum.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.000
She's like with you. You're acting crazy.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:23.000
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:27.000
You're crazy acting because I would get really attached to objects,
and I still am right like I and I collect.
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:34.000
Yeah. Objects. Same here. Same here.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Yeah.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:39.000
Yeah.
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:53.000
I take them like I rotate them around. I don't want any of them to
like not quite as severe as it used to be right, but it's but
there's something different there that I never was even flagging
looking at until then I learned about autism because until last
year, when I had
00:41:53.000 --> 00:42:03.000
A conversation with you about this? All, you know. Couldn't this be
complex trauma?
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:04.000
Yeah.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:13.000
And you're like, really, yeah. And then it's like, Whoa, there is a
difference like, yes, we have higher rates of vulnerability to
Ptsd, that is, in the literature that's part of that nervous system
already.
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Kind of been sympathetic wiring, and that because of that
rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, things that aren't labeled as
big t traumas to qualify for a Ptsd diagnosis in the Dsm are
experienced by neuro
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:34.000
No.
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:35.000
Yeah.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:42.000
Divergent folks as very traumatic. And so we actually have Pts 2
things that no one else is even registering is a big deal
right?
00:42:42.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Yes.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:03.000
Yes, y yup!
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:11.000
And so I think clinicians like just that element of like asking
more about asking more about childhood, although I do think it
takes, it's taken me more education about the female presentation
of autism to then go back with that retrospective yeah, lens and
then start to see things differently but then
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:25.000
It's like it's all I see, and I'm like, How is no one else seen as
pattern, you know, like I am a skilled find or something, you know,
and then putting it together right like that is a gift of
neurology.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:30.000
We have right and
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.000
Yeah.
00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Well, it is right. Patterns seeing patterns, putting it together
like a puzzle piece, and so so well said, and my guess is, there
will be clinicians out there that say you know, now we're just
diagnosing.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.000
Everyone is autistic and whatever. And the reality is, is not
true.
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:50.000
You know there are people that don't females that don't aren't
diagnosed as autistic.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:03.000
And and if we do, if we are really great at assessing and
screening, and we're asking these questions, and we're being
curious as we listen and observe.
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:13.000
And we're seeing the person we can accurately diagnose whether it's
autism as a diagnosis or other diagnosis.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:26.000
Right. I do think there's kind of this lax approach, and not a
willingness to ask the right questions.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.000
Yeah.
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000
I do think that that just has to change. It has to change, because
too many autistic humans in general and particularly autistic
females, are going under the radar.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.000
And and as a result, we suffer, we really do. It's like it.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:42.000
It, and and I I I'm a huge advocate for diversity.
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:53.000
I'm a huge advocate for focusing on my strengths as an autistic
person, and before diagnosis, holy shit!
00:44:53.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Why was rough, and I didn't know why, and my relationship was hard,
and I didn't know why and now it's hard, but it's not as hard like
relationships in general, are just hard, but it's actually not as
hard because we he has an environmental.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:14.000
Nervous of. He has postermatic stress for sure, diagnosed and some
dissociative stuff.
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:19.000
So you know, he's got environmental neuro difference, right?
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:24.000
And I've got the biological. And so now that we understand that,
and we also understand that, wow, we have similarities in terms of
our autonomic nervous system is dysregulated.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:40.000
But just for different reasons. We both know what to do, to step
in, to to self, Sue. Right?
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:51.000
So let's just wrap this up with, I just wanna say to clinicians who
are jumping on a you know, a diagnosis of love addicts.
00:45:51.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Not that's not in the Dsm. But I know in our world it's you know,
people get diagnosed as as not diagnosed, but labeled.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000
My encouragement to clinicians is, instead of just automatically
assigned.
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.000
That's what's happening. Let's take several steps back.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:14.000
Let's do a proper screening. Let's be curious.
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:20.000
Let's let's let's start to ask questions like you and I have talked
about around those certain traits.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:29.000
And then, instead of love addiction, let's look at, or is this
person seeking, soothing with another person?
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Is that the person, their special interest? And are they seeking
safety?
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:42.000
And how can we support them in learning to regulate their nervous
system?
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:46.000
Finding those safe support people because we do, we need safe
support.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:51.000
I have very specific. I have someone with me like at work. That's
I.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:00.000
I do call her my work, wife, and I do have my husband, like both of
them, are my safe supports at work to help me navigate.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:06.000
I know my strengths. They they pick up where I don't have strengths
right same with clients.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:12.000
Clients need. Where? Who's your safe support? Person? Because we
like you were thrown out there?
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:16.000
Here, go to a Dv shelter. Worst thing that could happen.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:24.000
Let's help you be independent. K. We can be independent, but our
accommodation that's needed is we do need a person.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:32.000
We do need support, you know, and that one of the things that I
wrote down is that the word functional is relative.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000
Yes.
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:34.000
It's relative. Let's help you be a functional human being.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:48.000
Well for me. Functional is, I need a person that literally, I just
that's an accommodation for me, and I'm so blessed that I have
Chris that is willing to be a support.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.000
Now, Chris, isn't my caregiver. He's not my parent.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:08.000
We we know that I can show up for him. He can show show up for me,
but he also knows that you know, if I need to sleep with stuffed
animals, or I need him to like lay real close to me and you know,
or maybe I'm too, overwhelmed, and I asked him to go get my
noise.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:16.000
Canceling your buds or my weighted like he's gonna do that because
he loves me, not because I needy or I love addicted, or or I.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.000
You know I need a caregiver, but I have. I need my person and
that's okay, too.
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.000
Yes, yes.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:26.000
Anything you want to add around that Ali, before we wrap up for
today.
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:36.000
Hmm! Well for me, I just I love that, and I think I just want to
touch on.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:37.000
Oh, yeah.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:50.000
Give a little shout out to the the love of my life, which was my
old dog Buddy, right many of us right like our pets like.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.000
Yes.
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:57.000
Is that? All, you know? And but he couldn't cook for me, and I'm
grateful to have a situation right like where, rather than being in
a shame cycle of I can't be a functional adult cause, I just eating
trips.
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:02.000
And so right like I'm have a roommate that's a brilliant chef and
loves to cool, and I like to clean.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.000
Yeah, there you go. It works out. It works out
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:11.000
Because bye, okay, like that, we need supports. Right? It's not
that I can't.
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:20.000
It's just. Maybe I would prefer to be in putting my precious energy
reserves and things that are really light me up.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.000
And that's okay, too.
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:32.000
That's okay, too. It's finding our friends. It's finding our loved
ones who are willing to say Sure, I'll do this, you know, Chris and
I have an agreement that if he cooks I clean, I clean up the dishes
and vice versa.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:42.000
You know, and I some days I will cook, and some days I just don't
want to, and he loves it so.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.000
I love that you just said that, whether it's a roommate or friend,
a partner.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:50.000
And that's okay. There doesn't need to be judgment around that.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:50:10.000
We get to look at these, our relationships differently instead of
being so quick to label, because for those csats listening, or
anyone listening, clinicians, a lot of us really struggle with
labels, humans struggle with labels and there's a lot of judging
and labeling going on out there so can
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:16.000
We see the person first. I see you as a human. I want to see hit
you.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:20.000
I want to hear you. I want to know you. I wanna understand you.
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:25.000
You know. Let me let me, if I come in and I say, I'm autistic.
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:32.000
Yeah, I get the I get. I might sound right now like I'm contracting
myself by saying, I'm taking on that label.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:41.000
That label, that label was the relief of my life versus all the
other labels oh, you're a love addict!
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Yes.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:54.000
Oh, your borderline! Oh, literally had a therapist say to me once
you're addicted to drama so so no, I'm actually not addicted to
drama.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:00.000
A trauma there, but like, are you? So, my me getting to pick my
label?
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:07.000
Me getting to pick, and how I use that label. You know, I'm
autistic I'm not with autism. I have.
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.000
It has a you know. I don't have a disease of autism.
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:13.000
We don't need to find a cure for me, because I'm sick with
autism.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:21.000
No, I'm I'm proudly autistic. It's helped me so much to know that
neuro developmentally, that's what's going on with me.
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:25.000
And and life can be really good with that diagnosis.
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:26.000
So.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:36.000
Yeah, I whole hardly agree. Right? Like, it is the.
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Yeah.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000
It is changed my whole life like, for in such a beautiful and
profound way like hasn't made the life I've lived any easier right
like a totally rental.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:52.000
What you shared about just freely free learning about this, even in
recovery work.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:53.000
Hmm.
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:57.000
Being proud of myself, but really knowing that like, I know and
like, don't have a more trauma worked.
00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:58.000
And it's like, they're gonna be like everybody else.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.000
Yeah, and that's okay.
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:00.000
I don't need to be right. It gets to be me.
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:07.000
That's the what is! What a gift to lean into that for the next half
of my life!
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Right, yeah, yeah.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Right. And out there that are like, Okay, right? Like, maybe, let's
not of the stereotypey and the stigma that comes with the label,
because if it is something that fits in your claiming right, like
it is an amazing framework to see all of our life experiences
through
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:31.000
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's like, we're reclaiming that we're different,
not deficient and different is beautiful.
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:36.000
So on that note. Thank you so much, dear friend, for coming on
again.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:58.000
I know. Video, hug, video, video hug, yeah. And so as always, I
just want to say to everyone out there, that's listening, I'm
sending you so much love with with my raspy, sexy radio voice right
now, I'm sending you so much love and compassion.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Please be tender with yourselves. Please give yourself some
grace.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:11.000
We're all doing the best we can, sending you so much love, and
until next time, bye.